#55 - The Gospel and That One Relationship You Keep Avoiding with Pastor Matt Fagan

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Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the world

become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.

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With me today is Pastor Matt Fagan and he's over on the East Coast.

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I'm over here on the West Coast and it's a pleasure to have him.

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He's one of our exchange trainers, writes uh for our blog all the time.

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If you've not seen it, exchangemessage.org forward slash blog.

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um we're actually going be going through a concept.

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He'd written an article about uh quite a few months ago.

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but um the title of it is what gets you out of the chair and the whole idea of getting out

of your comfort zone in terms of relational evangelism.

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So Pastor Matt, thank you for being here and very, very glad to have you.

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How's things going on the East Coast?

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What's it like over there?

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Man, things are great, you know, in New England especially, uh people live for July.

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It's a fantastic time of the year.

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Yeah, in Arizona people don't live for July, but we're here.

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We're here.

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Well, let's get right into it here.

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You know, there's the thought that hits our brains, I think every once in a while as

Christians, where there's somebody in our life, we know we should be sharing Christ with

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them.

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There's this nagging feeling of, know, I need to like actually broach the topic of Jesus

and the gospel with this person.

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but we've kind of slipped into a comfortable rut.

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And it's a very hard thing to get out of.

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Why do you feel we get into these comfort zones with our relationships and are kind of too

comfortable to get to that next step of turning the conversation to Jesus?

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Yeah, yeah, that's a great, great question.

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think everyone can identify with that.

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You know, you've been in a relationship with someone and you're really getting along

great.

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Maybe something else has brought you into relationship.

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You love running, you love baking, you love football, you love whatever, and you're just

kind of at a particular level and you just enjoy spending time with someone.

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And then, you know, this thought hits you that

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you know, I should really go to a deeper level and talk to this person about the Lord.

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And um I just want to begin by saying, you know, where does that thought come from?

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That's not, I don't think as a believer, it's, you know, just me and the goodness of my

heart, the great love I have for people.

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I hope that's the case, but I think you got to say that that thought probably comes from

the Holy Spirit and he's just kind of prompting you and he's saying,

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Hey, let's, here's a good opportunity.

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Let's take this to another level.

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And so I think we should be careful about just trying to squelch that thought.

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I've found in my life personally, whenever that thought hits me, know, it's usually like

I'm traveling, I'm on an airplane somewhere, or I'm maybe in an airport and I'm sitting

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next to somebody and that's a thought I need to, I need to go with.

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But it is uncomfortable.

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especially in a relationship we already have, because by bringing up the topic of the

gospel, you're gonna involve risk in that relationship, right?

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It's gonna change.

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um Am I gonna be rejected for that?

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ah Will this person suddenly be turned off by that?

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Will it fracture the relationship?

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ah And so I think that's what...

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really kind of holds us back and we're kind of weighing is this risk going to be worth it?

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I enjoy this person, ah you know, and if we turn this to another level it's going to get

tricky and we are never quite sure how that might turn out.

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Right and giving the exchange which is the the main resource we use to train churches on

this stuff We call it bringing people to a point of crisis and I would say crisis is the

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opposite of comfort and but choosing crisis choosing to take a relationship into crisis

and bringing somebody to a fork in the road and saying All right.

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We got to make a choice here and the choice isn't whether to continue to be their friend

or not It's whether are you willing to go down this road and let's let's look at these

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verses together.

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I think

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I think it is a crisis for people and it's a tough one to overcome.

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Do you have like a personal example from your life or ministry where you kind of had

slipped into a comfort zone and you navigated your way out of it?

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Yeah, sure.

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there's a neighbor that we have that lives across the street, actually.

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And a younger guy moved into the neighborhood.

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Whenever we have folks move in, we try to get to know them, take them a little gift, just

trying to build relationships.

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A great guy.

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We enjoy conversation.

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It's the kind of relationship where if I'm out of town, he'll mow my grass or shovel my

walk and vice versa.

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And so it's just a real...

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cordial kind of uh good neighborly relationship.

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um But you know, in my heart, uh not long ago, the Lord just really impressed on me.

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This needs to go to a different level.

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And if you really enjoy this guy and care about him, you really need to push through that

and think of a way to introduce uh the gospel, at least do a little fishing, throw

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something out there, see what he knows about the Lord.

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And I'll admit the first time that that hit me, I do this a lot of time with people that

come through the door as a pastor.

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There I'm in my element.

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People expect me to ask spiritual questions, inquire about their relationship.

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uh This guy doesn't quite know that yet.

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And so this was a place where I really had to push through and think this is probably one

of those times where I'm gonna see how this goes with this fella.

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uh

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Thankfully, I was able to do that and push through and he showed actually great interest

for which I was very thankful and so I'm still following up on that but But that was kind

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of one of those things where I thought that's the article, you know when I when I wrote

I'm kind of like, okay Here's where I need to get out of my easy chair push this beyond

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what it is and just see where the Lord takes it from there

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And I mean, it sounds to me like it was a real matter of prayer.

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It was a step of faith.

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And I think as people, assume, because I think especially as Americans, the culture we

live in, the society we live in, that most of those interactions are going to go poorly.

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uh Our message as a whole by our country is not, it's increasingly received in a hostile

manner.

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People are very antagonistic towards it.

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So I think we just assume, well, the chances are, you know, and leaving it up to chance.

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uh

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this is gonna go poorly, but the reality is we serve a providential God who put us next to

that person and we oughta assume that God in his providence has a plan uh for this

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interaction uh instead of assuming, because to live in a world of chances, to live in a

world with no God.

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We don't take chances, we take steps of faith in a powerful, powerful God.

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But to kind of bring it back to what some of our listeners, the laborers out there are

gonna feel from time to time,

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and me, myself as a person, just to be really transparent, what do you do?

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You know, we're supposed to love people.

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It's supposed to be the motive for evangelism.

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What do you do if you don't particularly love that person or don't like them?

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You know, let's say you don't like them, but you know you're supposed to love them and

your neighbor actually drives you crazy.

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How do you overcome that?

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Yeah, yeah, that never happens to me.

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So I never imagine.

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No, I think again, something we all can identify with, right?

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There are just certain people that you're like, uh usually it goes like this.

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Well, if the Lord would ever say that person, it would be a miracle, right?

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That kind of thing.

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And yeah, I think we all experience that in our lives and especially people that just

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you know, seem to have such a struggle all the time in their own relationships and they

just come with a lot of baggage and you know, like every time you talk to them, they're

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just kind of vomiting their life on you and everything's so bad and negative.

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You know, that's my struggle when I get around people like that.

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And I've really had to ask the Lord in my own life to move beyond just the annoyance of

that, which is very self-focused on me.

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and really look at them with pity, really.

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It's, of course these people are struggling like this.

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know, what else would I expect from someone who doesn't know the Lord?

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Of course they're hard to get along with.

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Of course they're often irritated and get angry at the drop of a hat and are resentful.

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I mean, I fight that every day in my own flesh and I have the spirit in me.

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You know, what can I expect with others?

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And I think really it's moving from that sense of just annoyance to pity.

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It's not that I'm looking down upon them, but I'm saying, but for the grace of God, that's

me.

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I I am that annoying person on certain days, I'm sure.

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Just ask my wife.

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But I trust by God's grace.

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You know, His Spirit has helped me in that.

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And that's what these people need.

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They need the Lord and they need his presence with them.

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uh It's one of those things where we don't think of ourselves as the weird people, know,

personally.

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But we're the weird person to somebody out there.

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And thank the Lord that it wasn't somebody's perception that precluded us from them

reaching out to us, right?

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I mean, once upon a time, there was somebody that God put in your life that reached out to

you, and they could have well taken that excuse as an out.

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And so somebody stepped out in that way for all of us.

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I think we have to remember God created these people, He died for them, He loves them.

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And so it's okay if they drive you crazy, we can get over that.

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I know at other times, I know at other times Christians struggle with, yeah, okay, I love

people, but honestly right now I'm just burned out, just a little numb towards people.

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There's some people that get energy from this, from being around people, and there's some

people it's very draining.

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What do you say to somebody like that who,

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and i don't know if you can relate to i don't know which side of the equation you relate

to their faith people give you energy or kind of tend to drain you but me how how do you

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work through that

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yeah, yeah.

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Well, I'll let you know, you know, I'm probably on the side of the equation, believe it or

not, as a pastor that I'm drained when I get around a lot of people a lot of time.

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uh I really have to pray to focus my energy in that direction.

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uh And I think one thing that I notice is uh it sounds so simple.

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And I always tell people it is simple because the Christian life isn't complicated.

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It's simple.

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It's not easy, but it's not complicated.

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And really the more ah filled up I am with the Lord personally and just spending personal

time with him, the more that drives me to help other people, um the more it moves me

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toward other people.

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It often is the case that when I'm feeling like man, I'm ready to check out, know This is

this is it what I found is I'm usually trying to do those things in my own strength um I'm

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not really spending time with the Lord like I should and You know, really I think all

ministry comes from the overflow of what God's doing in our own life and if my well is dry

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it's because I'm dried up but when I'm

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full in my relationship with the Lord.

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kind of spills over into other people's lives.

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So that means I have to be intentional about that.

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I need to intentionally make times and schedule times and schedule opportunities to come

across the paths of other people.

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But as I'm doing that, I'm saying, Lord, I know this is what you want me to do.

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I know this is your will for me.

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And guide me to those people where you're working.

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I have a theory and you could you could tell me what you think about this You know, Jesus

was fully human.

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So he had a personality.

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He was either more introverted or extroverted I tend to think that Jesus was a little

drained by people.

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I mean definitely it's spiritually draining ministry he had but he did he would get away

and He would have to pray and that was his refill.

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He would go away and spend time with the father

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would take these retreats up into the mountain or the hill or whatever and that's how he

would get refilled.

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think that's a, I mean would you agree that's a model for us?

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Absolutely.

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In fact, I think it's very plain, right?

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end of Mark chapter one records one of the busiest days in Jesus' ministry, right?

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People were at the house where he was staying all night, deep into the night.

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And the very next verse says, early in the morning before it was light, he got up uh to

slip out and spend time in prayer with his father.

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And I think that is there as an example for us of ah his batteries were low and to

recharge it wasn't self-absorbed entertainment.

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It was time with the Lord and that's really what fueled him.

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Yeah.

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In your article, you mentioned this part of Jesus's ministry in Matthew 9.36.

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It says, I'll read the context 35, starting in 35, it says, and Jesus went throughout all

the cities and villages teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the

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kingdom, healing every disease and every affliction.

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When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them because they were harassed and helpless

like sheep without a shepherd.

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And then he said to the disciples, the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few.

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Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.

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um What is compassion, what does it look like in real life?

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And I mean, what did it look like for Jesus?

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And is that, are we supposed to have the same kind of compassion?

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Is that something that was just unique to his ministry?

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What do you think is going on there as far as a model?

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think what's really interesting is in that word compassion.

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um We think of compassion primarily as feeling.

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I have this sense of feeling and so therefore I sympathize with people and their plight or

I feel badly for them.

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uh This word is actually a word that indicates, yes, I have those feelings, but I'm moved

to do something about it.

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I don't just feel with people.

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I'm actually engaged in trying to relieve whatever

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trouble they're in or issue they're having.

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And when it comes to presenting the gospel, their greatest need is Christ.

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And so it's not that I feel sorry for them.

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They don't have Christ, but I'm actually engaged in ways to rectify that or to share

Christ with them.

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And the thing interesting about the Lord in this case is it says the reason he had

compassion was that they were a sheep without a shepherd.

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So they're

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had great need of guidance, of protection, of sustenance, just like sheep.

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And he's looking at them and he says, they're just wandering.

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They don't have any kind of direction or course of life.

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uh And he's the good shepherd that came to provide that.

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And I think when we look at people, we look at them that way and we see them in all kinds

of trouble and difficulty.

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you get to know people long enough and you ask a question.

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I like to ask people a question, even at a restaurant if I know them, hey, I'm going to

pray for my meal, what can I pray with you about?

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Everybody has an issue in their life that they've shared with me that needs prayer.

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And they're looking for direction about that.

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They're looking for help about that.

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And so I think compassion says these people have no help apart from Jesus.

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And what I want to do is introduce them to the good shepherd that will give them

direction.

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And I think that's right in line with what Jesus is modeling.

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He's saying these people are helpless and they just they need the truth.

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And I think that's that's the model that we follow.

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I know that at times it hasn't been compassion that's fueled me as much as guilt or

obligation because you know as a Christian you ought to be doing this.

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You're not necessarily being fueled by compassion because for one reason or another your

cup's not being filled and you don't have that connection.

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What's the danger of going through relational evangelism being motivated by guilt or

obligation when we share the gospel?

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Yeah, guilt's a terrible motivator.

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um It drains.

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ah Really, I think if we're plagued by guilt and evangelism, we're looking at evangelism

as duty.

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And sometimes it can come to the point where we're looking at, uh I fulfilled my duty so

that God will smile on me, right?

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That's why I give the gospel, because if I share the gospel five times this week, God's

gonna be more happy with me.

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Does the Lord want you to do that?

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Absolutely.

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But that's a terrible way to go about it.

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You can't earn any more favor with God, right?

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By Christ alone, we have all the favor with God we'll ever have in him.

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And so guilt's a terrible motivator.

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um Love is the greatest motivator.

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And I would say not simply just love for people like um we should have we're talking

about.

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But I think beyond that is love for God.

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And that in this frame that God has put us on this earth to be image bearers of Him.

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We're created to glorify Him.

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We're created to make Him big.

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How do I do that?

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How do I show my love for Him and that I'm a worshiper of God?

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Well, I show it by proclaiming Him, by speaking the truth about Him to other people.

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explaining to them why Christ came for them, how they can be reconciled to him.

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um And what that's showing is my genuine love for God and for his glory to be known

throughout the earth.

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To me, that's the highest motivation.

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uh Absolutely, we love people, we want to see them saved, but even in people, don't

respond to the gospel that I'm giving them and sharing with them.

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I can still glorify God just by giving them the gospel and I'm demonstrating a love for

God just by sharing the truth of Christ with them, whether they accept it or not.

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And so I think that really is the highest motivation that, as I said, gets you out of the

chair.

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It's, I'm going to honor God today.

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I'm going to worship Him in this.

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I'm going to show something about Him.

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I'm going to speak the truth about Christ to others as He's revealed it to us through His

Word.

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It's amazing when Jesus is asked what is the greatest commandment?

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He says to love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind and then to love your

neighbor as yourself I think the order matters because it's love for God that gives us

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love for people and I think before Jesus Christ I Don't think I don't think I would love

people as much as I do right now It is only because of the grace of Jesus Christ that I

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love them and when people when people when you interact with people

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believe they can sense your motivation.

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have their senses and you may think your motivation isn't coming through, it's coming

through.

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People know when you're genuine.

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People know when you're authentic.

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People know when you're faking it.

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And um it comes through.

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And you make that point that you're talking about glorifying God.

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You make that point.

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Evangelism is about glorifying God.

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um For somebody who's listening, who's used to thinking, I share the gospel so people

don't go to hell.

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Hmm.

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What does it mean to evangelize for God's glory first to that person?

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Yeah, So again, there are certain uh motivations in the scripture.

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You can almost think of them as like, you know, concentric rings.

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You drop a rock into a pond and there's these concentric rings that kind of go out.

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And I would say one motivation for sharing the gospel is because I love people.

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I don't want to see them separated from God forever.

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I'm not calling that an illegitimate motivation, but I would say that's one of those rings

that's

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kind of outside the center of everything.

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If I really want to get back to the center where that rock hits the water, I would say the

very center of everything is the glory of God and making him big.

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And that really is the centerpiece of evangelism.

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That's why when I do evangelism, like with the exchange, it's so important we start with

God and who he is, and we don't soften that because

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We're glorifying God by displaying to people He's holy, He's just, but He's loving and

He's gracious.

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And this way, we're making God big in people's eyes by making Him known.

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Now at the center of my heart is this motivation to help people to know Him that way, and

I want to glorify Him that way.

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Now, should I love people so they don't spend uh eternity away from Christ in hell?

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Absolutely.

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But I would say, again, that's something outside of the center.

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That's one of those concentric rings.

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um But the very centerpiece is the glory of God and making him known.

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You know, you quote John Piper, I was thinking of John MacArthur, by the way.

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John MacArthur went to be with the Lord and uh man, I'm appreciative of that guy's

ministry.

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And John Piper, who God is still using to this day, you quote him here, it says, missions

exists because worship doesn't.

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um When somebody rejects the gospel, one of the things you say is God is still glorified.

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Now that's a game changer.

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I think in a Christian's mentality to know that, sometimes we do this, we think the

rejection of the gospel is our shame, it's not our shame.

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We shouldn't be ashamed of the rejection and it's not about us, they're not rejecting us.

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So how is it that God is still glorified when somebody rejects the gospel?

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Can you explain that?

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Yeah, so I think again, what is evangelism presenting the gospel, right?

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Evangelism isn't necessarily seeing people come to faith in Christ, make that decision.

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Evangelism is my sharing the gospel with an unbeliever.

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And so that's what God calls us to do.

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And when I'm doing that, what I'm telling this unbeliever is I'm making them know who

Jesus is, why he came, who they are, what their response ought to be.

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And I'm sharing this full truth about how every person can be reconciled to God.

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How am I glorifying God in that?

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I'm speaking of God to those who must know Him.

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And when you think about glorifying something, think of magnifying, making someone or

something big.

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Think of it in these terms.

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uh I live in New England, but I am a Denver Bronco fan.

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because I was born in Colorado, right?

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And when people talk about the Broncos and if they start talking about John Elway, man, I

talk a lot about that, right?

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And I'm making it big.

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These were these glory days in which I was growing up.

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What am I doing?

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I'm magnifying that thing.

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It's through my eyes.

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I want you to see it as big as I see it.

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I want to convince you about this.

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Why?

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Because I'm making it big.

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I'm making it known.

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That's a trite.

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illustration, but I do think it parallels the fact that God is the greatest thing and he's

the greatest person and he's the greatest thing in my life and I want to make him big to

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other people.

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And so you don't know God?

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Well, let me tell you about him and let me make him big in your eyes as he truly is.

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And that's what it really means to glorify or magnify God in evangelism.

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That's what we're doing.

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On the flip side of that coin, things go well, God starts using us, God starts working,

people come to Christ.

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And I see this, I even catch it in myself, so I'm not judging anybody else, this is even

in George's heart.

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We start to make evangelism about our numbers, our stories, us, our pride, rather than

God's glory.

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um How do we guard against that?

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How do we fight that temptation spiritually and make sure we have the right frame of mind

about this?

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Because when all of a sudden things do start going well and God is magnified, there's the

human tendency to want to take glory from God.

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We're glory thieves, you know, it's like the flesh in us.

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What do we do about that?

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yeah.

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Absolutely.

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ah I wish I had the full proof answer.

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That is in all of us, right?

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uh We would rather image ourselves and image God.

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And that's right from uh original sin.

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That's a part of who we are.

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So I really think though, you gotta look at it and think if God uses me uh as an

instrument,

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to share his glory and somebody comes and bows the knee and accepts Christ as their

savior.

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I think instead of looking at it as an accomplishment, I need to look at that as a

humbling thing.

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um Why would God use me?

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I mean, I know who I am.

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I know what I've done this week.

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I know what I wrestle with in my own life.

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And yet God would use me to...

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present his truth and somehow reach somebody for Christ.

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So I think just this honest perception of who I am and the humility that comes with that,

that God would actually use an imperfect vessel.

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And of course he does because that's all he has to work with.

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And when I remember that, it keeps me humble.

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And I think that's the best way to approach that.

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You know, the question of why does he choose to use me is a very humbling one.

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Another one that I find myself asking all the time and I go back to all the time and it

keeps me level in terms of my pride and humility and is why he even saved me, why he even

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chose me.

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You know, I think about the prodigal son.

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When everybody else ran away, when everybody else abandoned, when everybody else was ready

to stone and condemn and judge, the father ran towards him with wide open arms, accepted

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him, took his shame.

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um you might go, who am I in that story when you're not the father?

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You might be the older son if you're the religious type.

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You might be the younger son if you're the worldly type, but I think we're all in a sense

in that particular instance at some point we are the younger son in that we come to the

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Father very broken.

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We come to our Father with filth of sin and He doesn't run away.

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He stays.

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And He stays in our life.

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And um when I think about everybody's got three lives, right?

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Your public life, your private life, your secret life.

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the who I am, really who I am and what goes on in my brain and the temptations I fight and

the flesh within me and I think about that and I think about God hasn't abandoned me in

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spite of that.

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I mean, I think that's the stuff.

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We don't need to dwell on it, but that's what we have to remind ourselves every once in

while is we have to think of God and His right place and we have to think of us and our

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right place and what happens is

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: 00:27:02

We think more of ourselves and less of God and it's like one theologian said however big

you think of God it's too small it's way too small and and and Yeah, I think we have to be

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careful of the converse which is sometimes people become Self-deprecating it's a big fancy

word for you go.

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Well, I'm nothing.

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I'm absolute dirt No, you're not you're made in the glory in the image of Jesus Christ and

he died for you and you're precious to him And you're his son.

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You're not nothing

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But at the same time, you're not Jesus either.

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So, I mean, you don't walk on water.

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You get dust on your feet like the rest of us, okay?

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So, I think it's important to keep all that in balance.

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I think back to our other point on that too, George is that Jesus also said he who's been

forgiven much loves much.

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And so we tend to think, well, I'm not like the prodigal.

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: 00:27:52

I haven't really forgiven mine, you know, but if we really know what's in our heart,

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and really think about that.

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Again, not to be self-deprecating and accusing, but just really know what's there and that

God loves us in spite of that.

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That really does uh warm our affections toward Him, right?

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That we have been forgiven so much and He still accepts me.

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And it strengthens our love for Him and resolve to serve Him out of a heart of love and

not guilt.

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Yes.

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And he doesn't, he goes even beyond loving me, he blesses me.

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And when I start to try to count the blessings, I mean it is incredible.

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: 00:28:30

And the more I think about the details and looking back, and I think any Christian, the

more you look back in your life, the more of God's goodness you see, and the more you just

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go, man, I don't deserve this.

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It's pretty incredible.

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: 00:28:45

So if every Christian

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Listening to this podcast took what we just said here to heart, evangelizing out of love

for God and love for people for His glory.

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: 00:28:54

What do you think would change in their personal ministry?

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: 00:28:56

Yeah, I think one, they would probably certainly be more aware of people around them.

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: 00:29:03

They would, it would bring awareness to my environment, my opportunities, the influence I

have, the divine appointments that God brings.

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: 00:29:12

I think it certainly would raise that awareness because now your day's operating not, you

know, one step before the other.

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: 00:29:18

What am I to do today?

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: 00:29:19

What's on my task list?

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: 00:29:20

What do I have to get done?

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: 00:29:21

I'm approaching my day as this is the

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: 00:29:24

Father's Day he's given me, how do I honor him in this day?

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: 00:29:27

How do I arrange my schedule?

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And how can he rearrange my schedule without my getting bent out of shape?

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: 00:29:34

And I think just having that mindset that kind of permeates how we live, ah for the glory

of God, that that just transforms how I view every interaction, ah every opportunity.

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that comes my way.

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I think that would be the transformative nature of it.

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: 00:29:52

I'm seeing every opportunity and every minute as a gift from God and ways to honor Him and

do what He's made me to do.

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: 00:30:00

Yes, yes, I love that.

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: 00:30:02

Any last words for the person listening, the laborer, the ones who are out there looking

to build relationships?

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: 00:30:09

Anything else they need to know about getting out of the chair today?

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: 00:30:12

Yeah, I think I would want to encourage them that, you know, we all go through struggles

like this, right?

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: 00:30:18

uh As a pastor that I'd study the Bible all week and still I'm like, oh man, all right,

spirit, I know, do I need to get out and talk to that guy, right?

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: 00:30:27

I've had such a hard long day.

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: 00:30:29

That's not unique.

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: 00:30:30

We all wrestle with that in our flesh.

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: 00:30:34

But praise God, when I take that step of obedience and I get out of that chair,

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: 00:30:40

and I do that, I'm like, Lord, why did I ever question that?

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: 00:30:44

I mean, I could do that every day, all day.

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: 00:30:47

I know this is why you put me here.

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: 00:30:49

And there's just this sense of, I've done exactly what the Lord would have me to do.

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: 00:30:54

And you know that feeling, right, when that happens.

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: 00:30:58

And so let me encourage you, just keep that in mind.

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: 00:31:01

Keep going guys um and watch what the Lord will do.

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: 00:31:05

Well, Pastor Matt, thank you so much for being with us today.

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: 00:31:08

That was super helpful.

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And for those of you listening, please be praying with us as we pray to the Lord of the

harvest that he would send forth laborers.

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: 00:31:15

Stay faithful.

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: 00:31:17

Look for the coming of Jesus Christ.

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: 00:31:19

He's coming soon.

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: 00:31:21

And um the harvest is plentiful.

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: 00:31:23

I believe it about America.

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: 00:31:25

I believe it about my zip code.

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: 00:31:26

I believe it about my neighborhood.

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: 00:31:27

The harvest is plentiful.

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: 00:31:28

if I would just get out of my comfort zone and go and step out in faith and trust Jesus

Christ to do what he's going to do.

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: 00:31:36

Thank you guys for listening.

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: 00:31:37

We love you guys.

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: 00:31:38

I'm going to drop a link to Pastor Matt's article in the description below and we'll look

forward to seeing you guys next week.

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: 00:31:45

God bless.

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: 00:31:45

Thank